[00:00:00] Angela Kennecke: I'm journalist Angela Kennecke and I'm Grieving Out Loud after losing my 21- year- old daughter, Emily, to fentanyl poisoning

[00:00:11] Scott Silverman: I was a, drug distributor, an elicit drug distributor, and methamphetamine was my product.

[00:00:17] Angela Kennecke: Former drug dealer, Scott Silverman now helps families in crisis navigate the road to recovery. The California man is also author of the book, The Opioid Epidemic: What You Don't Know Will Destroy Your Family and Your Life. I have a frank conversation with Scott about the public health crisis involving fentanyl. 

[00:00:40] Scott Silverman: And now, Because the methamphetamine manufacturers, I'm gonna put this in business terms, don't wanna lose the market share to fentanyl. They're lacing their products with fentanyl. And then you have to ask the question, why would someone sell a product that would kill its consumers? 

[00:00:59] Angela Kennecke: Scott is a crisis coach and family navigator and runs a recovery center in San Diego. He has advice for families dealing with someone in active addiction in this episode. 

Scott, thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Grieving Out Loud, I'm excited to talk to you because I know we have a lot of parents that find my podcast who are searching for answers, and I think one of the things that you specialize in is helping families. So I wanna , start by talking a little bit about your background, how you got into this field in the first place.

[00:01:36] Scott Silverman: That's a great question. My background really has nothing to do with what I'm doing today other than exponentially and anecdotally. , I was one of those kids in my family. I was the black sheep and I got, connected with mood altering substances at a very young age. You know, I had a pretty much traditional family. There were four kids. Parents worked hard, provided well, you know, there was structured love, if you will, in our family, and I just, I took a trajectory to a different area, and when I. Under the influence, I found myself able to cope with a variety of different things. I, I shape it differently now. In those days it was just like, this feels good and that doesn't, so I wanna feel better.

So I did those things and, you know, fast forwarding, I kind of crashed and burned and got clean and sober. in 1984, November 13th. That's actually my sobriety date. So I'll be coming up, I think it's 38 years this year. of continuous sobriety. So I, what that does for me is it allows me to be able to tell others that there is hope and help and it can be done.

 I run a treatment center now certified and licensed in the state of California. We work with a lot of professionals. We work with young people have to be 18 and over cause we're an adult facility and one of our focuses right now is on veterans, which is unfortunately a very. Underserved population and we're in San Diego where. The third, the third largest veteran population exists, and half our veterans don't even have insurance. So Confidential Recovery is my treatment center, and I also do, interventions, crisis coaching and family Navigating is something I like to call with that because I think, you know, families call and they go, How do we fix this?

If families were to call and say to you I think my son has, diabetes. Can you fix it? Well, no, but I can certainly make a suggestion that you see a doctor, you get an assessment, let him do the evaluation and know that there are tools that one can use to manage it.

And I look at this disease of addiction, as a disease , but what I'm seeing in the last 10 years as young people, you know, Go to a party, go to a social event, and ending up taking a pill that's laced with fentanyl and they expire. And unfortunately you've had that experience. I don't know the details, but that's what I see more of.

I mean, it's interesting today, San Diego just declared the fentanyl opioid issue a public health epidemic. 

[00:03:57] Angela Kennecke: It's horrible that it took so long, but at least someone's doing that. They're not doing that. In my community. We get a bad batch of drugs, or we get a bunch of drugs containing fentanyl, a bunch of overdoses. I think every community should declare a public health emergency, but they don't. 

[00:04:12] Scott Silverman: It's interesting because I, I actually went to our public health director four years ago, and I know the timing of it because it was two years before the the pandemic, and I said, How do we do that? In the four years that's passed, our overdose rate from opioids alone is well over 800%. So San Francisco declared the state of emergency about two months ago.

I've been trying to reach the mayor. You know, they're in such denial, my opinion. The, the public sector and the, the, the gubernatorial leadership and legislative leaders, they take it on sometimes as a campaign piece, unless they've been impacted by it personally then it's a challenge, I mean, a challenge for them to send the message out, but it has gotten to a point. That over the last 10 years. It is just, it's remarkable. You know how far we've gotten, and I actually heard on an interview yesterday that they're calling it the new, WMD weapons and Mass Destruction Fentanyl. It's up to 80% of the illicit drugs in our state.

And they, and that's based. Testing criminals when they're arrested with what they get, they take to the lab or autopsies from the medical examiner. So it's not like they're fluffing the data. They don't have to. But up to 80%. is laced with fentanyl. 

[00:05:26] Angela Kennecke: It strikes me that when you were using the threat of death wasn't so imminent.

[00:05:33] Scott Silverman: Not at all. Okay, Example, methamphetamine. And I am a retired unlicensed pharmacist. 

[00:05:40] Angela Kennecke: Explain what you mean by that. 

[00:05:42] Scott Silverman: Well, you smile, so you probably have a good idea.. Unlicensed pharmacist, I was a, drug distributor, an elicit drug distributor, and methamphetamine was my product.

So I, I come at this when I work with people and I talk about it in my book, The Opioid Epidemic. My experience is kind of unique because A) I'm in recovery, B) I was a distributor, and C) I've learned a ton of information becoming a provider and working with addiction professionals over the last few decades in recovery.

So I've got that aspect of my experience that I can bring to the table, which, and according to science, 15% of our country has an addiction problem. 10% will seek help. And of the 10% that seek help, that don't follow up with the initial, programmatic support that they get in treatment, 95% of them will relapse.

I mean, think about an industry that has a 95% failure rate. So we know it's bad. And, you know, as a subject matter expert, I can speak to it from a variety of different levels. So as somebody who was doing that back in the day, methamphetamine had about , I'm gonna use simple terms, 8% or 9% purity. Proportion to how it was being made, and it was about $11,000 a pound. And I'm just focused on Southern California. Now, it gets more expensive as it leaves the Mexican, super labs where it's manufactured most of the time. Now, today, you can actually go find a pound of methamphetamine.

It's $1,100, 10 times less, and it's over 80% pure. So that's part of the problem is the purity of the drugs because, you know, obviously the technology's changed. People have gotten smarter, and the more addictive it is and the more potent it is, the better it is for the, the manufacturers and the distributors and the, you know, the dealers basically.

So that's a piece of what's happened and now, Because the methamphetamine manufacturers don't want to, I'm gonna put this in business terms, don't wanna lose the market share to fentanyl. They're lacing their products with fentanyl. 

[00:07:45] Angela Kennecke: Why do the drug dealers lace everything with fentanyl?

And I say, Well, one of the reasons is, is that it's cheap and easy, and it gets people addicted fast if they survive. 

[00:07:54] Scott Silverman: And there's a, there's a common, understanding that fentanyl is a poison, and the morbidity rate continues and people are on the news about the overdose. And then you have to ask the question, why would someone sell a product that would kill its consumers?

 And I've heard this probably hundred times from the criminal justice side of this, you know, law enforcement because they interview and they get this information back, they don't care 

[00:08:20] Angela Kennecke: The lines out the door. 

[00:08:22] Scott Silverman: Exactly. And not only that, the lines out the door because when it hits the news, people who haven't thought about it are now engaging in being a new consumer.

And so for them morbidity, Is a marketing tool that you could never find a way to develop. And I'm trying to frame it in a way where people are going, Wait, that makes no sense. Well actually think about it. Yes it does. You know, the key to marketing is make something that people need. And have to replace often.

I mean, that's the sales basis. One of the first, you know, commandments of sales, that's how you build a business. And there are people who, you know, have billion dollar infrastructures that see, and by the way, we're the consumer, United States is the major consumer, so it's not hard to figure out where they need to bring their product.

[00:09:08] Angela Kennecke: I have parents contact me every week, struggling with a child, sometimes an adult child, sometimes a teenager, and they don't know what to do and they don't know where to turn, and maybe they've been willing to go to treatment, maybe they're not willing to go to treatment. It's such a precarious time because if you have a loved one who's using their chances of dying are really, really, really high. I suppose over the years, the advice you give to parents when you help families navigate these systems has changed. 

[00:09:41] Scott Silverman: Well, I wanna, I wanna take your last statement. I wanna split it into two parts. A child, you know, what, whether they're 17 or. 37 or 47 sometimes, you know, they act like a child with the type of choices they're making. That particular person who's consuming on a regular basis is probably not as high as risk as a 17 or 18 or 19 year. Who's never experimented and has really no understanding of what it is they're about to put in their body. So that being said, what I and I tell the. Story to both sets of parents. One have to, they both have to get educated.

I mean, if you were talking about somebody who got a, a form of cancer in your family, you, you do everything you can to research it, find out what the best resources are, the best treatment for it, the best doctors, the best facilities. You'd do all that. And you wouldn't even question what it took to, to find out.

Second, once you gather that information, you really need to talk to somebody about how to talk to your loved one. Cause the person who calls me is not the person who's actively using. That's pretty rare. Unless they're handcuffed to a gurney in the ER at the hospital. Mm-hmm. . Then I get those people, they call me then becasue they, you know, see me on tv or their mother gave 'em my number, blah, blah.

But it's usually the family. And they have no idea what to do. I mean, where in the family parenting book of knowledge does this come up? It's not even a chapter, it's not even a byline. It's not even in there. 

[00:11:15] Angela Kennecke: I'm a journalist and I know how to research things and when the trouble, I call it with my daughter started in high school and I took her from counselor to counselor to counselor. I, invoked the law. I tried everything but finding good information. Was really tough back then. I don't know if it's getting any easier. 

[00:11:35] Scott Silverman: And I think when you say back then, you're talking roughly, what, five years ago? 

[00:11:40] Angela Kennecke: Yeah. Well, you know, five to 10, 10 years ago. 

[00:11:42] Scott Silverman: Things have improved, but I think, again, the statistics I share with you before about the failure rate, that hasn't changed. And that hasn't changed in 25 years, and part of the reason is, is a disease of denial. It's the inability to feel feelings, and most people who suffer from continuous self-medication or anesthetising themselves, I like to say they don't think they have a problem.

So the person who has the problem, first of all, doesn't think they have the problem, and it's usually the family who's trying to advocate for them without a skill set, without the knowledge, without the a compass, without a GPS. And what happens is, in many cases, that pushes that loved one to kind of camouflage their behavior and hide it differently because most people that know that they're taking something to feel better or to remove the pain, have a pretty good idea that what they're doing isn't right. And they don't wanna embarrass their family. They don't want their family to think ill of them. They don't want people to think that they're failing. So what happens is that that kind of internal thinking compounds the problem, but, and so doing an intervention on it is hard because their customer doesn't think they have a problem.

[00:12:59] Angela Kennecke: That would be my daughter to a T. Like she hid it. I didn't even know the extent. I mean, I knew she was doing something I, I knew about marijuana. I didn't know the extent. And I, she was, she was very ashamed. She knew it wasn't right and she didn't want me to know. She didn't wanna disappoint her mom 

[00:13:14] Scott Silverman: Well, because she didn't want you to think she had a problem, number one, and number two,

[00:13:17] Angela Kennecke: Right.

[00:13:17] Scott Silverman: What she was doing was making her feel good in a way she never got from you or any other human being, and it didn't make sense to her. So, but she knew what she was doing. Probably wasn't right. So she wasn't gonna come to you and go, Hey mom, you know what? I think the, the dosing of, you know, the kind of drugs I'm doing today, I'd like to discuss with you because I wanna make sure that I'm not hurting myself.

That kind of conversation, unfortunately never takes place. So let me go back to, to your question. So I think what a parents need to do, you know, God gave us two ears and one mouth. They have to listen. But I have to learn, I mean like this, this new concept that, you know, acronym I've come up with, cause everybody likes pie, you know? Prevent, Inform and educate. And my favorite is well toss up between pecan and Apple . So the, the idea of that, the prevention piece in my opinion is two part. You have to really get educated and understand what's going on and know that, you know, if you are. 47 years old and you've got a 17 year old, you're probably not gonna relate to everything that's going on in their world and what's happening with social media. I, I think there studies are coming around now showing that there's, you think of major influencers, my oak entertainment, music people, spiritual leaders, leaders in government. You know, leadership people have been successful. They're kind of like our thought leaders.

Well, social media has become a thought leader platform, and it doesn't really matter who's pushing the information out, if it's been designed in a way to attract, if you will, people pick up on it. And then, kids don't usually talk to each other about the experimentation of drugs. What they talk about is, you know, I tried this stuff and it was unbelievable, and that kind of, Triggers the mind to say, Well, that if that made my good buddy feel good, and I'm already probably feeling pretty good, I could feel even better. How do you get into that mindset? I mean, and really talk to somebody. And, you know, as somebody who's been through it, all I can do is share my experience, strength, and hope. And I, I've learned over time that if I can get someone to listen a little bit and they, and they don't know me, but build a level of trust and I can generally do it pretty quickly. Then I can listen to them and if they feel they're being heard. Sometimes we get lucky and they might pivot, but a lot of times, you know, when I get involved it's, I call it the shut up meeting. You know, they, they want, the kids want to shut up their parents so they take the meeting. So it's even difficult. And I'm 68 years old, they see me, Oh, you know, what would you know? And then they check my bio and realize, Oh my God, look where this guy's been. But it is difficult and I gotta, I wish I could tell you there's an easy 1, 2, 3 step that one can take. 

[00:15:59] Angela Kennecke: When I, we were preparing for that intervention, I was really afraid. I thought, This is not gonna work. She's gonna walk out, She's not gonna go to treatment. I mean, do you think interventions work? 

[00:16:09] Scott Silverman: Again, if somebody is not ready to hear the message, I mean, I don't even do traditional interventions anymore. I mean, I, I do most of my work through Zoom, so I can talk to families anywhere in the country or the world.

And I think that traditional, everyone's sitting in a circle and sharing how they love somebody sometimes can take the person who's already on a journey of shame based, feelings and amplify it and then they go, Oh my god, you know? My, my parents, for example, have now brought all my siblings and my cousins into a room.

I was trying to keep this a secret. They feel betrayed. 

[00:16:46] Angela Kennecke: That's really interesting. I never looked, but I, I understand that. 

[00:16:50] Scott Silverman: Well, and it's, and it's worse for moms cause you're the mom. You know, you're the mom. And the thing that's interesting, and I, I probably, and I, I, every time I talk to families, I go, do you know the difference between you and me?

And they go, Well, you, you're an expert. I said, No, no. There's something even more simpler. I'm not family. I could say the same thing to their child that they say. But I'm not family. And when it comes from family, because keep in mind, you are the one who loved your child. You're the one who. Did whatever you could to put the things underneath them and in front of them to try to make their life easy.

So you are the first person that's probably gonna get, in their head, the information last. You're never gonna be the first person, you'll be the last person because they don't want to disappoint. So that's, Getting information, turning to a third party, talking to an expert. If you can find one in your community, and you're right, they're hard.

Traditional therapy doesn't look at addiction the same way until it's been diagnosed and you can't deal with underlying behavioral health issues. If somebody's under the influence. You have to remove that first. It's almost like you have to get undressed before you go in the shower, cause it won't work if you don't.

[00:18:06] Angela Kennecke: Right. And it's just such a complicated thing for families to navigate all of this. 

[00:18:11] Scott Silverman: Complicated and opaque meaning there is no one remedy and there is no, and there's no vaccination for it. Which is why it makes it so difficult. And I think that contributes, you know, to this industry's outcomes. And I say industry cause I'm in it. But on the other hand, you know, we have clients that we can work with for 90 days, maybe even six months. I mean, and the way treatment's paid for is it's benefits driven, which is a problem. It's a huge problem three to five year, a three to five year known issue in 30 days, and when most people go into inpatient programs, most people, they learn new tips and tricks. I can't tell you how much I've heard in the last four years where kids have gone in for methamphetamine addiction and they've come out a heroin addict. Well, how did that happen? Because the people inside there suffer from the same disease and after group they're talking to each other on what they can do for survival skills.

You know? And it's interesting and I learned that I used to work with people coming out of jail and prison, and I'd learned from them how they survived. And there was only one skill they needed in prison and that was to survive. So when you think about it, the form of institutionalization, obviously they had criminogenic think as well, but when people are in this environment, they're gonna do certain things they have to do to survive.

Cause if you don't, you don't survive. 

[00:19:32] Angela Kennecke: So, because it's so complicated and because not the same thing works for every person. And I know you wrote the book on the opioid epidemic. So what, do you see as some of the solutions here? You started talking about pie, but how do we start, you know, moving the needle on the success rate, on bringing down the number of deaths on getting families the help that their loved one needs?

[00:19:56] Scott Silverman: I've recently had an epiphany and that at my age, having an epiphany is so exciting. I think we have to, reverse engineer the way we think. I think we have to reverse market this issue. For example, a simple one, Narcan I'm learning about is the opioid overdose reversal drug. It's not in most schools. So by introducing that kind of a tool, it's kind of like I was thinking the other night. Well, you know, seat belts weren't always on cars. Smoke detectors weren't always in homes. Fire extinguishers weren't always in garages. Something had to happen, for that to be mandated to take place.

And when you think about it, what was that? Look at the effort that was put in to the pandemic. And I think until we see this as that we, And it's the euphemistic we, I mean, I don't. I don't trust the government's gonna fix this problem. You know, there's a lot of communities now that are gonna get large sums of money because of the settlements with, Purdue and the company and the, the opioid settlements.

And, and a lot of that's gonna go to law enforcement. A lot of it's gonna go to the county municipalities and the treatment providers, the people on the ground. They're probably not gonna see a lot of that. We can use Narcan, which is a tool to help, you know, overdose reversing. But while we're introducing it, we talk about why we're introducing it.

This particular medication has been created because who knows in the room? Oh, because my mom said I should carry it a nasal spray in case my friend overdoses well and have those conversations, whether it's in school with the family and I. I know from what we've seen in our school system, asking a teacher to do one more thing is just brutal and it's almost unfair. And the schools are, they have our children. For, you know, a few hours every day. So there's some consistency that could be embedded. Maybe more resources toward the school, get specialists. , whatever that base is, whether it's faith-based, a service club, you know, Girl Scouts, boy scouts, and I'm just, you know, randomizing ideas or the family. If I had to pick a group, I would trust the family first. 

[00:22:02] Angela Kennecke: Emily's Hope is developing, educational curriculum prevention curriculum, and we're piloting it in August for elementary school, in a age appropriate way where we're teaching kids about the brain and what substances do to the brain. Because I and my committee and everybody who's helped me with this feels strongly that we're, we're not doing enough of that right now, especially at the younger ages. We wait until kids are in middle. High school to talk about prevention. It's too late. It's too late. because peers become much more of an influence than parents and teachers.

And so we're working really hard on this prevention piece. I hope it makes a difference and I hope every it's in every school eventually. 

[00:22:39] Scott Silverman: Well, and, and if I could make a suggestion is make sure if you can, whoever's gonna deliver that information the kids are able to relate to. whether it's a 14 year old skateboarder or a 15 year old swimming expert or someone who plays tennis or rides horses or you know, someone who's got a platform that can help deliver the message. I just believe that if, if, if you don't go peer to peer, you're gonna have difficulty with kids getting engaged. I know, and I get criticized for saying this, but The DARE program is one of the only, 

[00:23:11] Angela Kennecke: It didn't work. 

[00:23:11] Scott Silverman: And that's what I get criticized for. Scott's the only one out there. Well, but yeah, but when they took it to rural areas, you know, kids were learning more of, It's kinda like when I was saying earlier, they going to treatment and they learn, they learn more tips and tricks.

So, But kids are pretty smart today, so if they can get, The message out in a way where it's being delivered by somebody, The kid's gonna go, Whoa, did you hear what so and so just said? Because they're not gonna say, Hey, our math teacher now is giving drug talks. So my point is, that's important, the delivery system and you know, look by the. I'm going to extend an all right if I can help, you know, in any way, shape or form I spent three years developing the book and I used a co-writer who did a lot of the research and spoke to a lot of different people. And if there's nuggets in there that you could utilize, you don't have to reinvent the wheel and it's contemporized information coming from somebody whose agenda is to stop going to funerals. 

[00:24:08] Angela Kennecke: What else do you have in the book that you think it's important and we'll, we'll put a link to your book.

[00:24:12] Scott Silverman: It's a toolbox how to ask questions, how to listen, what to look for, what the symptoms look like. You know, what's changing in your child's life or, you know, are there new people coming into the house and jewelry's missing, you know, simple things that people wouldn't necessarily think about. Also, how to stop, take a deep breath and know. That you can't fix this. 

[00:24:34] Angela Kennecke: Yeah, 

[00:24:35] Scott Silverman: You cannot fix this. You are the parent, and as the parent, you must be the steward and the navigator. But if you don't know how, it's okay to ask for help, three of the hardest words in the English language is, I need help.

So that's really where I start with people, is I ask them to be quiet, take a few deep breaths, I want you to try to get to the facts, what's going on, and then let's back into what's important about what you could do tonight, tomorrow, the next day, to start the process.

You know, you're not gonna create systemic change overnight, but part of how you even communicate with a child could be part of the intervention, and sometimes that communication is, is shutting up. You know, where are you tonight? You know, I went into your room, I saw your vaping pipe. I know you're doing drugs.

Well, the, the more a parent does that, the smarter the kid's gonna get, and they're gonna hide their stuff out of where the parents find it

[00:25:29] Angela Kennecke: I think parents in those instances, because I've been there, are truly acting out of fear. Like we are just afraid that something is gonna happen to our kid and it's out of our control. They're not toddlers anymore.

[00:25:40] Scott Silverman: But I'm a firm believer if the house is on fire and you bring a squirt gun, You, you might feel like you're doing something you need to do to help prevent the house from burning down. I get it, but the squirt gun's not gonna do it. And that's, that to me is more my analogy with, with government.

I mean, they, they tend to bring a squirt gun to a fire and it's just not working. It's gotta be on the table. Just like, fruits, vegetables, protein, water. 

[00:26:06] Angela Kennecke: Don't you think the reason it's not at that point. I mean, we're, we're in our little corners of the world talking about it. I hear from more, more parents every day because it, the overdose numbers are, deaths are through the roof. I think this is the stigma that holds everybody back here. And that stops society from accepting that addiction is a disease of the brain.

[00:26:29] Scott Silverman: A agree, Absolutely agree. It is a stigma and because, and then if we start talking about it, in some ways we're revealing that we have this defect in our family. 

[00:26:40] Angela Kennecke: But everybody has it in their family somewhere. 

[00:26:42] Scott Silverman: Well, you know, well one in five is a number now, but, but on the other hand, every family has some Look, you live long enough, you're gonna get every disease they say.

So if you look at it like diabetes, and we don't camouflage it or candy coat it, or just, and mostly we deny it, we just go, you know, we will love them and they'll be fine. Well, how long have you been working at that? Well, six years. And, and how's that working for you? Well, it's not, so if it, if it doesn't work, maybe you need to change it.

[00:27:12] Angela Kennecke: Do you think because of the fentanyl and the drug supply that families should take maybe extreme measures to try to save their loved one's life? 

[00:27:21] Scott Silverman: Absolutely. Why wouldn't one, but, but 

[00:27:24] Angela Kennecke: like what, what would you suggest that they do? 

[00:27:27] Scott Silverman: Well, you can't, you can't put your kid in a cacoon. You can't put 'em in a bubble. I think the best way, the simplest way of, of all the things we talked about today is when the parent sits down with a child, first of all, you put the finger of shame away. Second of all, you put the, the finger of accusations away. You, you, even if you know that they know, you know, telling them doesn't help. That just makes 'em feel like they got caught. So sit down and say example. You know, hope somebody sees this podcast and say, you know, he said something interesting or he didn't say something interesting. Using third party about what's going on right now with the overdoses in our country.

What, what, what do you know? What, what are your friends talking about? What, what? What have you learned? Because it's your generation that seem to be getting impacted by this soft, quiet, and then shut up, and then what comes out of their mouth. Next, well hopefully guide you to what you should do next. If I had to wrap this up in 30 seconds and say, That's a nugget I'd like to see you take away, try that.

 I had a mother once said to me, I'm moving. I've sold the house. I'm getting a trailer. I'm going out to the desert, taking my daughter with me, and I'm gonna make sure I stay with her 24 hours a day. She had a methamphetamine addiction and I know a lot about methamphetamine. I said to her, I said, What are you gonna do when you go to sleep? She says, What do you mean? I said, Well, when you go to sleep, you don't think your daughter is potentially gonna get on her hands and knees and crawl three or four miles to find some methamphetamine.

What makes you say that? I said, Because you told me she does those things. So I said, I don't understand how you think that's going to help. Well, if it's not around, she will find it. That's her job. If she's in a drug seeking mode, she will find her medicine to make her feel better. And methamphetamine's one of the ones that are really tough cuz they don't have, Medication assisted treatment and harm reduction for methamphetamine. Now if it's cut or laced with fentanyl, they can treat the opioid side, but not really the methamphetamine. It's a, it's a detox that has to happen, hopefully medically supervised and then treatment, and then outpatient and then follow up, and then some sort of a, you know, engagement long term support.

[00:29:52] Angela Kennecke: So what did you tell that mother to do with her daughter rather than take her away into the desert? Or did she try that, like what happened? 

[00:29:59] Scott Silverman: Well, she said, Would you talk to her? I said, I will talk to her. So I, I met with the kid, you know, she was a, I don't know, maybe 20 years younger than me. We sat down and go, Your mom wants to sell your house and move to the desert in a trailer. How excited are you about that?

I'm not going with her. I said, Really? I said, So why is she willing to do that? She's crazy. I mean, she, she thinks I have a problem and I, I took her, I said, Look, let, let's, let's go to the, the men's room for a second, okay? And I, put her in front of a mirror, and I said, What do you see? She had pock marks and you know, she was missing a couple teeth and a lot of that from meth, She said, I don't look very good, do I? I said, Well, you know, I'm not gonna judge you. I'm not gonna make the observation. You're a smart person. Let's go back and talk to your mom. Anyway, so we talked about her getting access to treatment and mom providing resources for her when she got out. I know mom didn't sell the house. They didn't get the trailer and they started communicating. I followed up with 'em for a couple months and we had some three-way conversations, and I think, you know, she was heading in the right direction, but, you know, you, you've gotta make some major changes when you do things like that. I mean, I was lucky. I had my wife, she was with me that my last two years of using and my worst time and she's been with me ever since. Without that family support, it's really hard. So when there's family involved and then of course there is a situation, Were the accidental overdose. And I heard that term about 15 years ago. And I just, Why? I don't believe that. I don't believe that. What does that mean? And, and then I learned it happens all the time. And you're right. Back in my day and you know who said this was Dr. Drew, said when Whitney Houston passed away. An overdose. He was beside himself for three days, all over the media going, you know, musicians, entertainers, famous people, rich people, poor people have been shooting heroin and smoking marijuana and crack cocaine, and they weren't overdosing and dying. 

And something's happened. Now, you know, a lot of it, you know, like Whitney, she had prescription, anxiety medicine, she had cocaine, alcohol. It's the mix and the purity, and that's where I think we have to start educating children to know. There was a homeless guy in San Diego about six months ago, was interviewed by a reporter. He's been surviving for years. He was a methamphetamine addict and he told the story how he goes. It's dangerous out here now. Before it was uncomfortable and now it's dangerous because the drugs that are on the streets are mixed with things that we can't find ways to test. So he goes, What I do with my methamphetamine before I put it in my body cause I wanna live. Now, this is a consuming, active drug user. I got a hold of the Fentanyl test strips and I test my methamphetamine every week. I thought that was pretty sophisticated. So how do we teach kids to do that? Test something if you're gonna put it in your body, okay, we can't stop you 

[00:33:00] Angela Kennecke: Some people would say that was encouraging kids, but they're gonna do it anyway. Right? . 

[00:33:04] Scott Silverman: I mean, yeah, there's gonna be people that say that. So if it's a tool that works, cuase narcan's a reversing tool. A Fentanyl test strip basically will allow someone to know if there's fentanyl in a drug they're taking. Fentanyl is commonly a poison on the streets. How bad could it be? I mean, there's a, there was a billboard in San Francisco a couple months ago showing a couple going, a couple friends going to a party, and everybody had Narcan in their pocket. If you're gonna party with a buddy, kinda like a designated overdose reversing colleague, I mean, Okay. I thought it was crazy, but you know what, If it's saved a life, why not? And, and I think we've gotta get the test strips out there. We have to get Narcan in the schools. Narcan will save a life. A test strip may prevent somebody from taking poison that could kill them. So there are different uses. But there are applications that, how do we ignore those? What else is there? I mean, we've seen the, you know, here's your brain on drugs. We've heard just say no. 

[00:34:01] Angela Kennecke: Just say no, didn't work. 

[00:34:02] Scott Silverman: Not at all. We haven't come up with a solution yet. So putting things out there that are helpful and it starts the conversation. For example, somebody wants to come into treatment with us, okay? They're a marijuana smoker and they drink and they say I'm not giving up marijuana, we let 'em in. Cuz to me that's harm reduction is to be able to say to somebody, Look, we understand marijuana's your friend, alcohol's your friend, you think only one of them's killing you. That's fine. That's your thought process. But come into treatment and let's start talking about what the path of absence might look like. And you know what? Most people given a choice, will go, you know, that's fair. Nobody else will do that. 

[00:34:39] Angela Kennecke: What have you found works best for treatment for people? Medically assisted treatment for opioids I think is essential.. What's working for you for people that you see?

[00:34:49] Scott Silverman: Long term support, meaning we, when I created competition recovery, the idea was we're gonna get them for probably 60 or 90 days from the insurance company. Then we're gonna try to create a backend where they're tethered to us for even once a week, or even once every two weeks or once a month. So it's that continuum of care with the social model and the social model really kind of came out of my experience with anonymous programs.

And treatment wise, I mean there is, you know, harm reduction, there's methadone, there are people that think that it's synthetic heroin and people just move from one drug to another. But for some people it really works well. But I'm a zero abstinence person to, to get people to, But if some people's taking medical marijuana because they have seizures when, when they try to stop drinking or using, it's a tool.

So, you know, I just talked to a group the other day said, What's your opinions on. Marijuana. I said, I just share with you if it, it's a tool, if it works, you know, ketamine some people, that's a tool. Some people think psychedelics are a tool for detoxing. I don't necessarily believe in that because it's highly addictive.

But I think the long term commitment, the communication, the facilitation of a group and people reporting back in, cause we UA people, we test people. So there's accountability and I think that to me gives us the best shot at doing it, but I've seen people go away for 18 months, come back and get loaded within a week.

 So what we teach people is different things they can pick up from meditation to yoga, to breathing, to, you know, to going to other 12 step meetings, non 12 step meetings, Buddhist meetings, faith-based groups, something to have that connectivity. An addict by themselves, like, one of my favorite sayings is my, my mind is like a bad neighborhood. I try not to go there alone. Ever. I go to four meetings a week and I've been in recovery for 37 years. And I do it cause zoom is convenient. And secondly, I wanna preserve the integrity of my recovery. And some people don't even like the word recovery.

Some people don't like the word sobriety. Okay. It works for me. And we treat clients with the idea that one size doesn't fit all. So we meet 'em where they're at. We, we give them the basics of the education side of it, and then we try to tailor, a lifestyle change for them that, that makes sense for them, it fits for them. So it isn't something they go I don't want to do that. Well, if, if someone says that, then they won't. Well, let's find something you will do. Cause if what was working was working, we wouldn't be talking. 

[00:37:21] Angela Kennecke: That's true. Well, thank you for all of your insight. And we will put links on the show notes for this podcast to your website, into your book. really appreciate you joining me today. 

[00:37:31] Scott Silverman: Thank you for having me.

[00:37:32] Angela Kennecke: Thank you for joining me for Grieving Out Loud. You can listen to more episodes of this podcast and read my blogs on our website, emilyshope.charity

until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.