[00:00:00] Kathryn Burgum: When I took that first drink, all those voices that were in my head telling me I was stupid and that I made mistakes and I needed to be perfect, those voices went away. And then I felt like I could be, be anybody, do anything. Uh, so I did feel like it was Nirvana. 

[00:00:15] Angela: Shortly after her husband, Doug was elected governor of North Dakota.

In 2016, Kathryn Burgum decided to share her personal story. Burgum is in recovery for substance use disorder after battling alcohol addiction for 20 years. Her platform as First Lady of North Dakota is to end the shame and stigma surrounding the disease of addiction. 

[00:00:37] Kathryn Burgum: This is a disease. Because no one would choose this life.

No one would choose the life your daughter had. No one would choose that life. So to me, it's pretty easy to figure out. It is a disease. 

[00:00:49] Angela: Kathryn's recovery reinvented event is coming up on November 3rd, and you can take part. We talk about how and so much more in this episode of Grieving Out Loud. 

Well, Kathryn, it is an honor to have the First Lady of North Dakota join me on the podcast.

[00:01:07] Kathryn Burgum: Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful to be joining you today. Thank you so much, Angela, for the work that you're doing to, you know, eliminate shame and stigma, the most important thing we can do to help people. 

[00:01:18] Angela: Yeah. We're both in this same boat together, right? I mean, that is your platform the one thing you're really focusing on and trying to do.

[00:01:25] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. It is the fastest, cheapest, easiest. And most broad spread way to eliminate stigma is just to talk about it. Getting everybody to talk about it. Like it's a disease. It is a disease. You know, talk about it like we talk about any other disease, whether you've been impacted by it, whether you have yourself struggled, you know anyone you know, just talking about it eliminates the stigma and more people will reach out for help.

[00:01:55] Angela: And I would say that everybody has been impacted in one way or another by this disease of the brain. 

[00:02:02] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. I agree. When I speak to people, I ask them to raise their hand and it's like there's hardly anyone who, And then sometimes I think, well, the people that have it raised their hands might be in denial. You know? I don't know. You know, , 

[00:02:16] Angela: That's true. And I, when I always ask a credit room, Raise your hand and it'll be one or two that don't, and I always think, ah, they're, they're not being honest about something, you know, It's either, A friend or a coworker or themselves or a relative, I mean, is just so prevalent and it is just something that we seem to have a hard time getting our arms around to reduce that idea that it's a moral failing or a character flaw.

[00:02:40] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely, Absolutely. You know, in North Dakota that has been our primary purpose is to eliminate the shame and stigma, and we have been working on this now for six years and you know, mainly through getting people to talk about it. Mainly through those kinds of discussions, me speaking to people, other people you know speaking, other people helping.

We are also all in on this theory, this concept of peer support specialists because we don't have enough people in our state, enough services where 50% rural, so we have over 700 peer support specialists trained now in our. To be the boots on the ground. Helping people in our rural communities and the work that they do is all about eliminating shame and stigma, helping people get back on their feet. You know, the other thing that we do in North Dakota is in the first couple years when we were doing this, my husband and I, he, you know, people would say, I have a feeling that things are changing in North Dakota. I feel. People are accepting this more as a disease. And I said, Well, you know, feeling is one thing, but data is another. Data moves the needle, data gets funding. So we did a survey. And to try to learn what do people of North Dakota feel about stigma of addiction? And we learned at that point, this was back in 2018, that 63% of people in our state believe that addiction is a disease. Which I was like, That's fantastic. You know?

[00:04:05] Angela: That is fantastic. 

[00:04:08] Kathryn Burgum: I know, right? But it still meant that one in three people believe it's a moral failing. So we did a couple of things. One, we thought, you know, what's the nontraditional area where people may not be already bought into this concept of disease? And we kind of focused on the corporate environment. The business environment and started getting more contact and having more speaking opportunities and that sort of thing. So that's one way we did it. But we also, again, had the peer support specialist, which was a big component of our services through the state of North Dakota. We did another survey a couple years later, and we had reduced the amount of stigma in our state by 11%. Just by people talking about it, you know? And so it does work just having people, you know, get out there. The other thing I did too is, you know, when I'm speaking to Chamber of Commerce or an Amazon event, and I actually ask people to stand if they're in recovery, You know, because I can't sort of say you need to talk about it and not ask people. Sometimes I'll ask how many people have been affected. Um, but the, it's, it's such a powerful moment when people actually stand because a lot of them have never done that before. Their coworkers don't know, they struggle, you know, etc.. It's very powerful. So we, we are making progress in our state just by talking about the disease of addiction.

[00:05:28] Angela: I have found that the people helped by our Emily's Hope treatment scholarships when they come forward to tell their stories. It really helps them stay in recovery and the people around them are proud of them and it actually helps them, you know, in so many ways and they give back to the organization and it's quite remarkable. And I think years. And I'm not gonna knock alcoholics anonymous by any means, but I think the idea that you should be anonymous, that it should be hidden. And I'm not saying people have to know, obviously your health is your business, but I also think I wouldn't be ashamed to tell someone I had diabetes or heart disease.

But I think if we could get to the point where substance use disorder was this, just, just considered the same as that because it is a disease of the. 

[00:06:14] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. And you know, 12 Steps programs do work. They don't, they're not for everyone. They do work. They're not gonna promote that. Because what if some celebrity says is the spokesperson for alcohols anonymous and then they, you know, relapse or whatever, Then people out there might think it really doesn't work. So that's part of the reason why I think makes sense. But yet people who are in recovery, Should talk about their recovery, should talk about their sobriety. You know, they don't necessarily have to be this spokesperson for anything, but they, you know, anonymity is a choice for sure, but the more people who talk about it, who talk about how they struggled, who they know, et cetera, again, is just the best and easiest, fastest, cheapest way to talk, to eliminate stigma, which is the barrier that, you know, I didn't talk about it. My own recovery for, Well, first of all, I didn't reach out for help for 20 years, and then I didn't talk about 15 years of recovery because of the stigma, you know, until I became First Lady and then, I don't know, somehow something happened. , 

[00:07:20] Angela: That was my next question. So, you know, your thrust kind of into the limelight here. I, I'm assuming you hadn't been in the limelight before you were in this political office and you decide to tell your story. What prompted you to do that and how difficult was it? 

[00:07:36] Kathryn Burgum: Well, two things. One, I'd heard someone speak. His name is William Moyers. He is with Hazel and Betty Ford. He's a writer. He's written great books about addiction to recovery. He had a crack addiction 25 years ago. When I heard him speak, he said, The best way we can eliminate Sigma is by a good emotional talking about it because it was so powerful. He said, You and anyone who. Is impacted or has struggles or whatever, just talk about it and then ask three people to talk about it. And that's what he, that's what he said. So I was, I was kind of thinking about that. And then the opioid situation was so outta control and it still is, you know, and, and it was combination of those two things that, you know, when I was asked to do, the first interview was First Lady by a newspaper guy. Five minutes worth of interview. I said to my husband, You know, I'm gonna talk about my recovery. And he. What, you know, he was just shocked. And then when I talked about it, literally I felt like a hundred pound weight was lifted off my shoulders, you know? And I. It also just began to open so many doors, um, to meet people and, and be in on a platform. Um, and, and, you know, in a, in a position where people could really hear, you know, the message and, you know, and literally I'm so grateful for that because I, I could never have imagined when I first got in Sober in recovery, I wanted to give. And I thought about being addiction counselor and doing that sort of thing and, and then, you know, life went on and I was doing corporate world and all that.

And then, you know, now I get to do this work in my life, which is just so, so important because it does, for me, it really balance. Says the role of a First Lady and the commitments that are, you know, sort of, kind of required or expected of that role. And I'm kind of an introvert and you know, some of those things are really hard for me where I'm like going to meet the president or going whatever, and I'm like, Oh, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. And some people would be like, I don't understand that because you know, how does that work? But then when I get there, I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad I did it. But you know, it, the balance of being able to do this work that that helps keep me sober, helps me in recovery, you know, is just so powerful. 

[00:09:52] Angela: And I think when people see that people like you or just in anybody who they think in their minds may not suffer from something like this actually do. And in my case, going public with the loss of my daughter. People think, well, it only happens in certain families or to certain people. I mean, it can happen to anybody. And I think that by more people telling their stories who are in the public eye, it sort of normalizes it and makes it possible for other people to seek help. 

[00:10:20] Kathryn Burgum: I agree. I agree. You know, but I, I'm still, you know, one, one thing we think about as our team, cause I'm still so baffled by why. There isn't enough help available.

Why people aren't talking about why, you know, when so many people are dying overdoses. Still, the number of people that died just from alcohol was been around forever. 

[00:10:44] Angela: Right. 

[00:10:44] Kathryn Burgum: And that was declared a disease back in the fifties. You know, I'm still kind of baffled that it is still. Where we are, our team talks about a lot about trying to impact a healthcare system because the healthcare system can really impact the stigma around the disease of addiction, and that's one thing with the AIDS crisis. That's a differentiator between eliminating stigma with AIDS and eliminating stigma with addiction is that started in the healthcare movement that started by people in healthcare embracing this, that as a disease. Here's what we're gonna do, even though there's all kinds of stigma related to that. And so I believe that's where we need to be focused too, is on the healthcare systems in the, in our world.

[00:11:28] Angela: Well, I agree with you. I think we need to have treatment associated with healthcare systems, and we also need to screen, if you had screening at every touchpoint with a medical professional, You know, but I don't know why it's so hard to get these things. Also, more medically assisted treatment. The Suboxone for opioid addiction is proven to work, but not very many doctors can prescribe it.

So there's so many things within that system. Certainly we could push to change. 

[00:11:56] Kathryn Burgum: You're so right, You know, cause I, I go to the ER for the flu. One of the things they ask me is, you know, do you feel safe at home? Which are, which are great questions, but you could ask some of those questions of people that are coming in to, in, in, not a judgmental way, but you know, where people feel safe to have that conversation. But that, you know, is so true. 

[00:12:17] Angela: What about since you're in government, what about the government's role in all this? I hear a lot of conflicting ideas about what we should or shouldn't be doing, especially when it comes to fentanyl. 

[00:12:28] Kathryn Burgum: Oh yes. Um, well, we have a behavioral health team in North Dakota that is literally cutting edge. They are leaders. Other states really admire us because, you know of things like the, the whole peer support program is a state. Program that's not like a public private partnership. We're all in because of that. And you know, as far as medication is this treatment, we're progressive on that, you know, And then the governor, it's one of his platforms.

Behavioral health is one of his platforms. And then, I don't know if you're, when you refer to Fentanyl, maybe you're talking about sort of the, the, the criminal justice part of it, or what? Help, help me understand what you're, 

[00:13:08] Angela: Well, just the way it's pouring. Country and you know, the raw ingredients coming outta China and then you know it's being assembled in Mexico and is coming in 

[00:13:16] Kathryn Burgum: Yes, 

[00:13:17] Angela: across the border at Checkpoint and by ship and by air. And I just think you hear, I know that's a federal issue, not so much a state issue obviously, but there's so many differing opinions around, you know, I don't think it's strictly a law enforcement issue either. We have to lessen demand. You know? 

[00:13:34] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. Absolutely. You're so right though it is pouring across the border, the southern border, the fentanyl that makes its way to North Dakota.

You know, your Yes is coming in from China, but so much of it's coming from the southern border. When I met with the drugs are last January in in DC you know, I said, Hey, what are you guys doing and how can I help? Let me help you. I will be a voice of helping to eliminate the shame and stigma, talking about what your administration is doing. You know, that sort of thing. And um, you know, and they were, they were talking about how much. How much fentanyl they're getting at the border, which was like twice as much as they had, you know, a couple years ago. And my thought was, well that's because, you know, it's easier to get it across the border, not because that many, you know, more people are smuggling twice as much. I just think there's more people, you know. So I think there's certainly looking at it, but yeah, somehow there's gotta be a way to have, have less coming into the country. Absolutely. 

[00:14:35] Angela: Yeah. And then I think education and prevention, that's what we're, we're working on at Emily's Hope is getting into the grade school level to teach kids about the brain and how the brain works and how substances affect the brain, you know, in age appropriate ways.

[00:14:49] Kathryn Burgum: Yes, 

[00:14:49] Angela: And I don't see a lot of that out there, but I love the whole peer support group you're talking about. A rural state like mine could adapt that same kind of program because there aren't enough resources once people are suffering from this disease. 

[00:15:05] Kathryn Burgum: Yes. And those resources are so great because they have lived experience. Peer support specialists are people that have lived experience with the disease of addiction, you know, and or mental health. And then you, they, they get trained to help other people coming outta the criminal justice system or just, you know, out there in the communities that need help and, The, the really cool thing about it is it can be a career for people. Cause like in North Dakota, it's covered under Medicaid, and if not already soon, the big insurance company, once something's covered under Medicaid, then the big insurance companies start covering it. So these people who can't get a job because they're. Yeah, well, felony, you know, like you do, you know, you do some drug related or addiction related crime, and then you have this felony for the rest of your life. You do your time, but oh, by the way, you're gonna have this for the rest of your life, which is horrible. But they, it's so hard to get a job. This way they can make a career of this because they can get, it can be funded. Through insurance and in our state it is funded through our state. But um, and then there's payment through that process. But once I even out of that, these people can make a career of it, which is so important. 

[00:16:17] Angela: That is important. I wanna touch back a little bit more on your own journey to recovery because I, as I was doing my research on looking at some of the things you've said publicly, I, it struck me that you said cuz your, your drug of choice was alcohol and you started young in high school and you said something. I've heard every person who I've either shared a stage with to talk about these issues. Who is in recovery has said that once they tried their drug of choice, whether that be alcohol or marijuana or whatever it is, once they tried it for the first time, they had found their answer and you put it so well. I thought, and I have warned my children actually Emily's siblings, you know, if you try alcohol and you think like, this is it, I found what I was looking for my whole life. This is my answer that you better watch out because you are are prone to that addiction. 

[00:17:11] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. That is so true. Yeah. And you're right. Yes. That's a part of my story. You know, when I was in high school, probably had depression and, you know, anxiety, you know, because I was more of an of an introvert. And then I also had a family with. Very conditional love. You know, if you do what we want you to do and you do it well, we really love you. But if you, 

[00:17:33] Angela: I grew up the same way.

[00:17:34] Kathryn Burgum: Yeah. I dunno if it's a Scandinavian heritage, you know, I dunno. 

[00:17:38] Angela: Could be. 

[00:17:38] Kathryn Burgum: But it, I mean, you struggled, you didn't ask for help, you know? 

[00:17:42] Angela: No. There was a stoic, stoic people that just didn't talk about emotions or show a lot of emotion. 

[00:17:48] Kathryn Burgum: No, 

[00:17:48] Angela: about anything. 

[00:17:49] Kathryn Burgum: Yeah, And you don't take an aspirin, you know, you don't . You know, like if you have trouble, you just really don't. When I took that first drink, all those voices that were in my head telling me I was stupid, and that I made mistakes and I needed to be perfect, those voices went away. And then I felt like I could be, be anybody, do anything. Uh, so I did feel like it was nirvana, you know? But then I, I had my first blackout in highschool.

So it was not the solution for me, but you know, I thought it was for many years, you know, and then by then it's too late. I can't stop on my own. I try to stop, you know, I relapse over eight years, 20 years of struggling, really trying to get through life and make it, you know, make it to work every day or do whatever. But mostly it was like the lying and the, the deception and all of that, that, that was happening in my life because, What would the consequences of, of, of having an addiction, 

[00:18:44] Angela: now that you understand it so much better, are you able to forgive yourself for all that time and everything maybe that you put others through and that you went through?

[00:18:55] Kathryn Burgum: Wow. Can you say that? And I'm like, Oh, I'm about to cry because, you know, part of what I've. Had to do too, is in accepting, and forgiving is, you know, is you're right. You know, sort of forgiving yourself. But again, once I was like, Okay, this is a disease because no one would choose this life. No one would choose the life your daughter had. No one would choose that life. So to me it's pretty easy to figure out it is a disease. And you know, once I accepted that, that was super helpful. But you know, I had to go back and talk to some people. I said to my sister the other day, Hey, remember that time, whatever. And cuz it still is popping in my head. And I'm like, I'm just so sorry about that, you know? And she's like, Oh my God, I forgot about that a long time ago. And that helps me so much to actually talk to people and say, I'm sorry for the things that I did. 

[00:19:44] Angela: Yeah, I know that's a big part of it in recovery. What keeps you in recovery today? How many years have, has it been since?

[00:19:51] Kathryn Burgum: Yeah. I have over 20 years. Uh 

[00:19:54] Angela: oh, congratulations. 

[00:19:54] Kathryn Burgum: February. Yeah. February will be my 21st then. Um, but you know what, what keeps me in recovery? Well, this work for sure, doing this work reminds me every day of what happens. If I take that first drink, how much also, how much better my life is because I don't have that. I don't occasionally have drinking dreams, and it's just the worst feeling to wake up and just feel like I've, you know, sort of thrown this all away. And it's not like, Hey, I'm trying to run 50 marathons for my life, and that's my goal. This is. This is a life or death thing for me, you know? Um, and so that's what helps keep me, you know, I also, I travel a lot and occasionally I'll be in a hotel room, and then now there's not just like a couple little mini things in a bar, you know, in a fridge. There's a whole bar set up in your hotel room, like, I guess people just drink whole bottles of whiskey or something, and that they're beautiful. They're blue and green, , you know, whatever. 

Occasionally I'll just. Please no alcohol in my room. You know? Cause it's like, it is kind of weird that you just be, everybody just assumes that everybody drinks.

[00:21:06] Angela: I did a podcast with a doctor about liver disease, actually, Doctor, who talked about the increase in women drinking. You know, it's always been more socially acceptable, but now we're at the first point in history where women are drinking as much as men, so, and it's everywhere. We, I sure you go to political events all the time, and alcohol is always involved, so, 

[00:21:26] Kathryn Burgum: Right. That was one of the things when my husband came home and said, you know, I've been thinking about running for governor. Cause my first thought was, how can I nav? How can I do that? You know, there's gonna be alcohol everywhere and whatever, and I'm an introvert and I don't always wanna do stuff and whatever, and you know, but we had this agreement cuz he is so supportive of me and my journey. He's incredible and he really doesn't drink much. So that, you know, that's worked out very well for us. I said, well I need to always have my own getaway car. Like I, when I wanna go. I'm out, you know, and there's no, okay, please stay, whatever. And so that's been super helpful because there are times when I just make a choice. I don't, I just feel I'm not feeling good in this environment and I just need to leave because there is alcohol there.

[00:22:09] Angela: Yeah. So what else is ahead in North Dakota? What else are you doing? You've got some big events coming up, don't you? 

[00:22:17] Kathryn Burgum: We do, yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. So the governor and I for at five years this year will be the sixth year we host an event called Recovery Reinvent. When I first got into office and I made this announcement, I was in recovery. Someone suggested you should do a conference. We didn't wanna do the usual conference, and I'd been to so many of those and I really like the TEDx format, so we kind of borrowed that format and did our first recovery reinvented, and we had a great turnout. And what it is is it's a day long event that's focused on eliminating the stigma of addiction. Really completely about that. But we also bring in, you know, the experts who understand brain science and, and then we, we ask people to stand, you know, if they're in recovery, we have music, you know, we have, we have awards we give out. So it's, it's about celebrating recovery. I'm getting emotional talking about that too. Cause it's such a powerful day and we have so much fun. The governor and I, the team, you know, that is, Takes a lot of people to pull it together and we really enjoy it. It's free and open to the public and it's online and it anybody can attend. In fact, I'll just say if you go to recoveryreinvented.com.

All one word, recoveryreinvented.com. You can register because we do need people to register to let you into the conference. But it's online, you know, and we have, you know, we just have, I don't know, 6-7,000 people around the world that, 

[00:23:47] Angela: That's amazing. We'll, we'll put a link on the show notes here.

[00:23:50] Kathryn Burgum: Great. 

[00:23:51] Angela: So people can check it out. 

[00:23:52] Kathryn Burgum: Thank you. Thank you. So that's what's ahead, But then, you know, we're also considering whatever is the, whatever we need to do. Our behavioral health team, I always tell them, I'm your marketing person, so you guys who understand this world, you're working with Samsha, you're working with other states, you know, you're, you know what's cutting edge. Let me be your marketing person. I will help promote whatever programs we come up with. We have a partnership and, and that's a lot of what I. Is promote that, You know, We're also looking very, a lot more closely at mental health. Also, for me, it was harder to say, I have depression. You know, It's hard for me to say that than it was harder for me to say that than it was that, that I have an addiction. Because of the stigma. The stigma around that too. Right? 

[00:24:38] Angela: Right. 

[00:24:38] Kathryn Burgum: You know? 

[00:24:39] Angela: Well, there's stigma around both and they certainly go hand in hand. I mean, there's a reason why people continue to use, Usually they're self-medicating. 

[00:24:47] Kathryn Burgum: Absolutely. Absolutely it is. You know, it's, I just don't think there are many people out there that have just completely separate, but probably, I don't know. But you know, I,

[00:24:57] Angela: and sometimes it's the chicken and the egg, depending on what age they start use. Right. So it affects the brain and, and they can develop mental health issues from use. So, 

[00:25:08] Kathryn Burgum: Yes. And that, you know, you're right when you said, I agree too, there needs to be more prevention because people really understand, you know, if you do not. You let your brain grow. and get to that full potential when you're 23 or whatever, you know, 25 or 23, you know, when you get to that point then you know, but when you start drinking at 15, you're four times more likely to have an addiction later in life. You know, So, 

[00:25:35] Angela: but marijuana is even higher than that, you know, for young people. Um, increasing risk of addiction. So I just think that we can't be just thinking those things are rights of passage for kids anymore. 

[00:25:48] Kathryn Burgum: Yes. And it really, we have a whole school system of people that could be talking about that, that specific issue and, and educating young people. Right. But I also think we need to, we've gotta have parents who walk the talk too. You know, when I grew up, my parents were two, three martinis a night, you know, wine through dinner. But yet it was, the message to us was, you will never drink. , you know? And so, and then I was like, 

[00:26:14] Angela: and kids usually model themselves after parents. 

[00:26:17] Kathryn Burgum: Yeah. 

[00:26:17] Angela: So, 

[00:26:17] Kathryn Burgum: but my, my parents, they were kinda nicer when they drank, you know, , they were kinda, you know, so, uh, anyway, so parents certainly can play a role too. Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Angela: Sure. Sure. Well, this is exciting. I love that you're working on this issue. I'm so happy I got to talk to you today. I look forward to seeing what's ahead, what you do ahead. 

[00:26:37] Kathryn Burgum: Thank you so much, Angela. Again, thank you for the work you're doing. Oh my gosh. You know, you are impacted, impacting so many people, the scholarships to get into treatment and, and then now you're focusing on adolescent treatment. You know that Oh, so important. There aren't, there just aren't enough adolescent opportunities. 

[00:26:56] Angela: No, and I feel like if I could have gotten Emily, because the trouble with Emily started about 1415, and if I could have gotten her into a treatment center in my hometown inpatient, I would've done that. I was looking at sending her out of state, and I was scared to do that. I don't know. I mean, I just, I'm so glad there's only eight beds in this treatment center in my community, but it's affiliated with the medical center and so we've pledged a hundred thousand dollars for treatment scholarships for adolescents who aren't covered by any sort of, you know, Medicaid or anything like that. But yeah, I just think we have to help because it's so expensive. Even, even with insurance, even if you're lucky enough to have insurance. 

[00:27:38] Kathryn Burgum: I completely agree, and you know, and then it's, And then insurance doesn't cover it for long enough. Then the science shows 30 days is not enough, you know? 

[00:27:47] Angela: No. 

[00:27:47] Kathryn Burgum: And so, yeah, completely agree. Thank you so much for the work you're doing, and if there's anything I can do to help you in the future, please let me know.

[00:27:59] Angela: I'm your host, Angela Kennecke. Thanks for joining us. You can get more information on the mission of Emily's Hope, listen to all of our podcast episodes and read my blogs on our website, emilyshope.Charity. Until next time, wishing you faith, hope, and courage.